Dr. Mariana Bozesan on Talent, Sustainable Finance and the Future of the Planet

Jeff Kavanaugh: Welcome to this episode of the knowledge institute where we talk with experts on business trends to construct main ideas and share their insights. Today I am happy to be joined by Dr. Mariana Bozesan, co founder and president for AQAL Capital, a leading impact investment firm based in Munich.

Jeff Kavanaugh: This is the research we are doing at the knowledge Institute and why I'm so excited to have you with us today. Do you give a little bit of context, The knowledge Institute is conducting research on talent acquisition and development in this disruptive digital age. We're looking at it in three dimensions, workforce, workplace, and the work itself. We've surveyed over a thousand people in seven countries.

Jeff Kavanaugh: We've talked to executives, academic leaders who are preparing students for the future. We thought it would be really good to add this dimension with your background, what you're seeing in Germany and what you're seeing as an impact investor. Perhaps even more importantly, we're interested in your perspective from your work with the United nations and the club of Rome and your other activities on sustainability and equality. Welcome Mariana. And could you tell a bit about yourself and your background?

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Okay. My background, I am a computer scientist by education and I have studied artificial intelligence back in the 1980s when most people didn't even know what computer science was. I also got a PhD in psychology because as an investor I realized very soon how important psychology is to the success of not only in this piece but us as investors and company builders. And I've found that to be neglected by most traditional investors and so because I came across some extraordinary tool that could help bring them more age ago datability view into the business world and the investment world. I thought that I needed those two legs to stand on.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: So I'm a technology investor, experiential technology, artificial intelligence. I have invested in companies and built companies, one of which is the first internet company. They went public on the German stock exchange. It was the internet service provider all back in the pre bubble, actually 1998. And my current view and strategy on investing is to make transformation feasible in the life of the climate change threats and other threats that existential threats, nuclear threats and artificial intelligence threats are that we're currently experiencing.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I believe that we need science to be applied within the latest discoveries within the business world and investing. And I as a member in international travels, Rome, I am hoping to make the transition feasible who have, everyone is talking about the thing with development goals, and I totally agree with however, I think that they are contradictory in terms with one another. For instance, we apply number one, no poverty, at any cost as we have done with the past several decades. We will burn, talk to fuel to help people get out of poverty, and the planetary boundary at the operating off the planets are suffering and, will not sustain life the way we know and knowledge. So we need to take a more integral view of the world, and we need to make sure that we implement the UNHDG within the operating system of the planet, the planetary boundaries, which have been defined by scientists and, which are nine.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: So this is what I'm doing. I'm investing with what the main focus to build companies that are integral sustainable and that are ensuring the future of life.

Jeff Kavanaugh: What are some of the education and training aspects of companies making this transition in a feasible way? As you're evaluating investment candidates or looking at research, what do you see with talent and skills development that's either helping or hindering this feasible transition?

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I see a dysfunctional investment in business world that has very hard time understanding in what direction to go and how to address the potential threats that we have.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I see an investment in a business in the financial world that has not understood that we only have 11 years to address the climate issues that we have.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: And I see an industry that even if some of the participants have understood that we do have these issues, we are pretty lost as to the implementation to what to do, to participate in any way, shape and form that we can started with entrepreneur businesses, but also financial industry and investors. I'm really not trying to be negative, but we really, really have to move fast. And so it's kind of hard to counter your question because I'm working at various levels.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: As an investor in technology companies, we build early stage companies from this. We try to build integrally sustainable companies from the very beginning. What does that mean? That means that when we build companies from the beginning, that we look at the team that understands all the concepts, then the integral issues that we ... the entire picture. And we have developed various steps to do the due diligence process, which helps us understand that people that we're investing in [inaudible 00:06:03] get the picture and are ready and willing and able to work with the capital to work the implementation of the UNSDGs within planetary boundaries.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I think this is the first step. I think people have to understand that our aim for the next 11 years is to help these companies and organizations that are empowered to implement the UNSDGs within planetary boundaries. There is no point in investing in any other company, but the ones that understand that this is priority number one. So this is the strategy today we need to understand and build the company on.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: How do we go about implementing that? How do you make sure that, let's say we get a couple of hundred deals over the year and how do we do the screening and how do we do the due diligence? And what is the process? The process is contained five steps.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Number one, is the traditional financial due diligence that every investor goes through and why that is important is because financial sustainability, just as important as environmental sustainability, the social sustainability, there is no point in choosing one over the other. Our motto is the power chain, the equality between people, planet, and profit and with passionate purpose. These are the 6 P's into the summary of the motto that makes it simple for people to follow.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: What does that mean? The parody means that there is an equality in the way we look at financial sustainability, social sustainability, environmental sustainability and personal joy and happiness. There is no point in doing what we're doing and suffering because people can't do that for a long time. It's a personal road to life. It's just as important as you know, having something to eat or being in a socially peaceable environment and environmentally safe and so on.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: The first step in the evaluation process is the traditional business plan evaluation. We go due diligence packings blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah to see is there a business.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Number two, which is what most investors already don't do, is the sustainability aspect. Based on the very metric. You could go to UNHDG there 200, and I don't know how many 70. You can go to Jen, the Irish. You can go to Gear with the B Corps and other measurement criteria that we look at, and we ask our investees to look at and see, which ones of these sustainability criteria fit with their business and, which ones are they willing to address and report. So this is the second assessment.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Number three, is the team assessment whether the team works together because it doesn't make any sense if the team doesn't work together. 80% of the risk of any company, any investments lies with the team.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Number four, are the individual of the people in the team. The Individual assessment. What does that mean? People tell you a lot of stuff, and you look at the traditionally at the investment industry venture capital, which is the one that you know, I'm in and this high risk, but I mean it's very important because 60 to 80% of any economies throughout the world is fueled by the early stage should buy in a small enterprise.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Just because this small company doesn't mean or a startup, it doesn't mean that they are, they're less important overall picture. It's the assessment of individuals serves to make sure that what people tell you is what they really need, that they have the capability to really fulfill what the promises.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: If you look at the industry and, and I'm doing a lot of generalizations here is, you find two liars sitting, standing in front of each other. You find the venture capitalist to the limited partners saying, Oh, we're going to deliver you the unicorns and this world. You're going to make a lot of money and so on and so on. If you look at the performance in the path of the venture capital as an industry as a whole, they have not performed. They have not kept the promise. And the environmental degradation to me, even to go to help reform is not an example for success. It's actually an example for failure because they went after the money only, and we cannot eat trinkled we eat money at the end of the day when our environment is dead.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: The other liar is the entrepreneur. If they go to the venture capital followers and ask for money, they know what the VC is looking for. So they're [inaudible 00:11:04] Oh, I'm going to do the, bring you the J curve within two years, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so this is something that actually nobody really wants to do. But if you know, the common understanding that it is expected.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: We're coming in and try to create a totally and not try to create a totally different structure. What is the truth? Why aren't you doing this? And what makes you believe that you know you're going to be the last one going to bed, and you are going to be the first one getting out of bed in the morning. What else is, what is the mission? What is your purpose? Because this is what the hidden determinants that drive this team. So this is number four in the person. Then we do of course the gap analysis and decide whether or to go in to invest.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: And of course, apart from the day to day business of building companies or identifying investees and investing in them and guiding them, monitoring them, keeping them on track. We of course work a lot with regulators because as you know, the biggest elephant in the room is the single most important criteria for success around the world, and the West exporting this stupid paradigm that goes for profit only at the expense of people in the planet. So all the business school was all the criteria for success is for profit only. And of course our financial world, the business world it measures their success by the factor only. It's for profit only. All the other factors, environment, social governance and so or PG, the KPI, they're not part of the elephant in the room.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: That's why one of the biggest activities that we do is try to change that. This is what I'm doing with the club of Rome. I'm also a fellow in the world Academy of art and science. We're really doing a lot of lobbying work to help people show that actually they need to lower their investment risk, the business risk by adding what they call right now, externalities to people, and the planet to be very short.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I can tell you as of now, it was just a published in June, the European commission published to the taxonomy as a result of the work in the call of Rome and others that's for sustainable finance where they have included the so-called externalities into the taxonomy.

Jeff Kavanaugh: I think if we can now start to converge a little bit, go into the talent side. For example, sustainable finance, what are you looking for as companies grow and what are you seeing successful companies do to grow their talent? Maybe a broader appreciation. There's a death or a famine of the right kind of talent out there for many kinds of technology. And even for the new clean energy or sustainable things people are trying to do, there's a lack of talent let's say, or skills. What do you see with that gap or shortage? And also what do you see as a way to overcome it.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Now that you have the framework with which we operate the five steps? What I clearly see is, and I can only speak for earlier stage and small and medium enterprises, the small enterprises basically is that there is no budget for talent development in this environment. Small and medium enterprises struggle particularly in Europe is there is capital to help people in the very early stages. There is no growth capital. There is no further in the capital to help people grow to the next levels. So they go to Silicon Valley. And so we lose good talent. But even if you go to Silicon Valley, there is no investment. But to other being done in my personal assessment, in talent development other than cognitive development. When it comes to coaching and personal development, the investments are not done.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: There are companies that you Google who have introduced meditation and mindfulness, this and that and the other. And I could go into that. But I dare say that the only reason why they do that is to keep people more at work through food, through exercise, providing them all the amenities. I personally believe that this meditation, mindfulness stuff, and I'm talking now about Silicon Valley is going to backfire because people won't stay, won't allow to be exploded as they have been this far. That's going to backfire. Free people who really have freed themselves through meditation won't put up with working around the clock.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Now, let's come back to Europe and to talent development. Again, in early stage, I don't see much. We emphasize that, we allocate 3% of the investment amount, or even more when needed to ink development because we could see that to be key. But that's how the industry operates. The traditional venture capital approach is to have an exit quicker rather than later. If the startups want any kind of development they have to do it on their own. But within this fast moving world and considering the fact that we have huge competition from China and they do have a different mindset, the different culture working even harder than people in Silicon Valley or in America, then the competition is huge. And there is even much room for personnel department.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Coming to those who do allocate resources, timing, money, to develop. There is a rather large movement of people who have left corporate America and turn toward becoming coaches toward meditation. There is this entire culture creative movement, slow hat who moved towards vegan eating lifestyle and stuff, meditation and personal development. You find that too. And we see it very clearly that more and more young people are coming from a different mindset, less egocentric and more world centric. And we see that very clearly also in the response to the movement that was started by Greta Thunberg with her Fridays for future by the young people.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I think Europe is taking the lead with respect to sustainable finance, sustainable investing in changing the mindset. We do not expect that to come from either the Americas nor from Asia, from China, AI in power tools that this integrate our privacy, but what's currently happening in Europe in response to the Fridays for future youngsters' movement is we see how the traditional parties, for instance, the conservatives and the democratic parties are losing to the Green party that's been coming fast but also to the regrets to the Nazis.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: At the same time, the European union is within this, how should I say, tension is responding to the Fridays for future movement, who are the kids. Greta being a 15 year old girl. Now 16 has called the youngsters, pupils into the streets. They are responding. And I would think that this entire sustainable finance movement from the European commission with the taxonomy and changing the legislation and trying to address the elephant in the room. We see support as investors and company builders. We see support from that. There's no point, no matter how rich you are, and we're not Warren Buffett, there's not enough capital to make, to shift the industry the way we do business.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: We need pension funds, we need money managers to join in, individual investors like us either don't move that much capital. As a result of the fiscal policy of the European commission over the past 10 years where there is no interest rate and now the Green movement pension funds are finally moving and are investing heavily, more heavily willing to invest in sustainable renewable energy.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: This is something that is[inaudible 00:19:59] to the climate endowment we noted down on June 5th, where pension funds have decided to invest in renewable energy. And we are willing to allocate between 20 and 40 billion euros into this field to show how it can be done. Lead the way so to speak. But that's it, that's a first for us because we are usually, we're not money managers, we're money owners, but we need to step in. Otherwise, nothing will change. Take more time to shift in the right direction.

Jeff Kavanaugh: What have you found effective to develop people to go from where they are and to be more successful as things continue to change? Because you are, you're investing in technology, you are investing in these new firms. What are the skills that you're trying to make sure that people develop to be successful-

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: There are several. In terms of the team. One of the tools that we use is Five Dysfunctions of a Team. That's by Lencioni, it's the business one tool where we assess how much trust there is in a team. We worked with trainers, coaches in order to make those specimens and to develop the team. But to the five dysfunctions of the team, are for instance, absence of trust, fear of conflict, lack of commitment, avoidance to accountability and its attention to results.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: This is one of the things that we do before when we do our due diligence and depending on what comes out of four of this, we then develop a plan that the team in between best will be developed. However, if there is no trust in the team, that's a sign not to invest. The reason why we do that is to do risk our investments and once investment is done, then we can develop the team.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Another tool that we use in terms of individual assessment is the LBDNA, the leadership lexical decision making assessment where we look at the ability of individuals to collaborate. So the collaborative capacity, how are they to take different perspectives and developing[inaudible 00:22:24] effects solution. That's an extremely important that they, you mentioned inclusivity back then of course, that the departments for that is the ability to collaborate if you're not able to collaborate with one another then you won't see the perspective or the other.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: The number two factor that it's tested in this LDBNA tool that we have often used over the past decade is contextual thinking. That's the ability to consider the problems in terms of a broader systems and context. If we are looking for people who are willing to employ or able and able to implement no matter what, whether they develop a healthcare device or an AI system, they have to look to think in a higher context. They have to be able to take a world view, not an egocentric view of the world, but not as ethnocentric, which would mean, Oh my tribe is the best. Like a make America great again, but take it a world view because only then they will be able to see the climate threats that we are having, the nucleus threats, the AI threats and so on.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: People develop applications based on their thinking. If we want to avoid developing AI systems that are racist or not inclusive or whatever you want, you need to make sure that the programs will be educated beyond artificial intelligence tools and skills in computer science, this and that and the other and all this complexity, but get educated in terms of morals and ethics and a world centric views and so on. Think outside the box. And that's currently not the case. When we invest, we want to make sure that the people in which we are investing already have that training and we need to make an assessment and how far we want to go in terms of investing further in order to compensate for that lack of education. And that's a very complex issue.

Jeff Kavanaugh: This is perfect because it complements, like I said, the traditional approach that a lot of large companies you have to take from going from in house training to platforms. A lot of the basic things that they do, but you're taking a very diagnostic and very developmental and holistic approach because you're dealing with smaller numbers of people and you also have a different purpose in mind. A couple of big questions are remaining.

Jeff Kavanaugh: First, what are the sources of talent that you're finding? Are the traditional ways of working where you pull people from university or traditional paths or are there some non-traditional avenues as well?

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Well, we've been in this market with investors for 25 years, 20, more than 25 years. We receive those applications from investees, we don't even have to do much. We're known people find us, but we have regular, we go to conferences and receive the applications and of course universities and research institutes are a great source for this kind of ideas and companies.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I'd like to go back to the vertical learning and the horizontal development growth. The model that we are actually using is Ken Wilber's Integral model. This is the foundation of our investment. One of the smartest people on the planet today, he's the inventor of integral theory and I have not come across over the past, I don't know, decades, any model that is more inclusive more developed than this philosopher's. Basically what he's using, he's taken, the platonic values to true, the good and the beautiful or arts morals and science and says, well, these are aspects of the human life that cannot be reduced to one another. You cannot. The beauty and individual subjective, opinion of who you are in yourself cannot be reduced to what the society outside the environment is. More of what scientific method does. These aspects of who I show up my behavior is a direct function of who I am on the inside and the culture that I live in. And so every exterior there is an interior, and this is extremely important.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Once we understood that as human beings, then we will stop reducing the world to one aspect, namely the outside. Because we've been aren't days looking on the outside and we believe that that's us. But those of us who've spent some time looking at the world from a different perspective, we know that that is not true. So the interior actually is much bigger, the subconscious is much bigger than the conscious and it influences us.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: When we do development of any kind, personal development of ourselves or that of teams, we need to keep that in mind and consider that the interior is much, much more powerful than the exterior. But if you look at the world that we have created, we have eliminated morals and ethics and culture from the scientific point of view. And very much is detrimental of our joy. And it happened this individual one. But evolution keeps going.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: And so all of us who are familiar with the Maslow pyramid know that eventually we all want to sell actualize to go to the top of the pyramid. But if we want to change the world and make it better, we need to fulfill the bottom of the pyramid. Otherwise, everything falls apart like a house of cards. In other words, if you go into the vertical development of an organization, you need to make sure that horizontally that the culture and the person is happy as well. Because we all know that people who go out and kill other people, they have had a bad childhood. The environment didn't take care of them and it all falls back to all of them. We're not that separate after all.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: But I don't want to become philosophical, though this is a very philosophical and it is a very spiritual thing. I've been a meditators for 40 years. If you want to go into the levels of development, there are other models. For instance, action logic. Suzanne Cooprider is one of my great teachers and role models. She developed the leadership development tests that we also use. The sentence completion test is another vertical result tool that helps us make a quick assessment of the people that we're talking to because everyone that you talk to has their, his or her level of consciousness on their lips. The words that we use, they are a direct reflection of what we stand on the inside.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Robert Keegan of Harvard and Suzanne Cooprider of Harvard, they have developed tools based on the language development of the individuals in order to make that assessment quickly. There are various actual logic from the opportunists to the ironic, and there are also numbers that share in terms of leaders, CEOs of bigger companies, to what percentage are at what level? For instance, 30% of the US adults are achievers of which are focused on delivering results and that activeness and so on. Only 0.5% are focused on what we would currently need, a world centric view of the world where we consider the environment and the implementing the UNHDG so other people around the planet get to have a good life as well within planetary boundaries.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: If you look at these numbers, and I've written extensively on this, we need to help people evolve quicker to where they have a more world centric view rather than an egocentric or ethnocentric view. And we see in all these, if you look at Hungary for instance, or Obrador or Trump in the United States, you see how regressives were currently working, becoming more protective and trying to raise more walls rather than become more open and help each other and support each other. Because we don't have the worldview and understanding that we are actually, the bad air doesn't stop at national borders.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: In summarizing, we use tools to make these assessments and help people through their activities. In our case, company building and organizations contribute and get rid of the separation because people are not happy if they're doing one thing. It's just like doing sports. You have to have a spiritual practice, you have to have a physical practice. You can't go and workout once and then, Oh, that's done for the rest of my life. You have to continue growing and yet in a company setting, the frameworks are not in place so that people can feel appreciated and supported. Anyways, so we tried to change that.

Jeff Kavanaugh: One large question, I think it's been implied and a lot of what you said also is how can governments or public organizations work with the private sector to bring about better development of talent and better at all-

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Great question and I'm sure you have many answers. My view is that education is key. And if you have children like you do, and I do, then you know that our kids have become rebellious against the current educational assistance and just keep in general, and the structures that were put in place, they do not reflect their own levels of consciousness. They do not inflect their understanding of the world. And yet we still force them to go to school and get the degree that they actually detest because they reject the professors.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I see so much around me. The young people, brilliant people, smart people who just refuse to go to traditional universities and acquire a regular diploma. They particularly in the West, I know that's different in China, but they refuse to play the game because they see the bigger picture. I hear everywhere I go, the kids don't mind friends, they go to university, Oh there's this elite university, let me study this and that and the other. And after a while they see that their professors don't even speak English properly. They have not the same amount of information as they do through the internet because the old professors don't use the tool, skills the internet, the platforms, they don't have a clue about what's going on in the world, but the young people do. And the respect is not there.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: I'm very curious as to how quickly you asking what the governments can do, how quickly the governments are learning. They are just as helpless and hopeless locked in responding to the new technology. We haven't talked about the exponential tech, which is actually, investment in the internet we saw it in the mid 90s in Silicon Valley at the same time when Elon Musk started. And we've been investing same way he did. We came over to Germany, but exponential tech is here. And our structure, our systems have not kept up. We don't even have fast internet, let alone our systems, professors don't use in Europe. And I'm sure that's not different in India or Silicon Valley is probably the exception.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: The professors of my son in high school would even have an email, they wouldn't use email. I couldn't write them an email. And I'm not the exception. I'm the rule. We are hopelessly lost exponentially growing technologies. I don't know that humans will evolve as fast as the AIs will evolve, and we will probably begin to use them to save ourselves quicker than we think. And I hope we will. That's my hope. I hope that technology will help us overcome the problems that we have right now because we don't understand. We don't grow as fast as technology does, and our kids get it. So, in response to long answer to your question is I believe the education system needs to change and needs to change fast. Unfortunately those who can change it don't get it. I don't know, maybe the Chinese will get there faster cause they don't have old structures to do things or that are pulling them back.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: But what I don't like about the Chinese aspect is as an old communist, I grew up in communist Romania. Years after moving to Germany, we used to speak in low audible voice because we were afraid that the walls are listening and now we have our own devices that are listening in bed with us. But we don't have the moral laws to prevent Facebook from giving our information away because we didn't catch up early enough to what can happen to us. We're pretty lost to unethical people like to go back for instance, to decide our future. I am very militant in my approach, and I think we have to be, otherwise we're going to lose our privacy and as long as Snowden is not allowed to come back to home, it's family. Something is wrong with what we call democratic systems.

Jeff Kavanaugh: I appreciate the commentary, obviously, brilliant thoughts and I appreciate you sharing them. The last big question that I had was if you're speaking to a leader in a large company, so let's just say in Europe, in the US and anywhere in the world, large company, and they were trying to grapple with how to develop their people. And do it then in an enlightened way as you mentioned. What advice would you give to that senior executive?

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: To start becoming more humble and start growing themselves and begin to look at the world not on the outside but on the inside and listen and talk to young people, teenagers and see what they care about and try to unlearn what they know because what they know, the old and outdated. And even if you don't, didn't like the remarks I made, a political remarks I made, they are very much connected to what I would tell them because it's not right. And as long as we're not allowed to talk like this feeling and to address these issues, we are creating the Broncos that are detrimental to our own. So personal growth and it's patient and team growth and company development is intimately connected to the freedom that we can have as a democracy. And how can you create a democracy and company develop your team if on the outside you're not allowed to say what you want to say. And if you own government doesn't implement to protect the right law to protect you and your privacy.

Jeff Kavanaugh: I appreciate you saying that now. One of the reasons why I really enjoy talking with you and like the panel we had before was that there was such a diversity of opinion and also some of these things were brought out very clearly, and it was a healthy environment.

Jeff Kavanaugh: Is there any last thing you'd like to add before we wrap it up?

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Thank you for doing the work you are doing. And I wish you good luck with it. I'm curious to what result is of your research, because I love the traditional corporate person, I am building small enterprises and re-investing and trying to change the way we built companies from the very beginning because that's where our hope is in my view. That's where young people can get access to capital to make their dreams come true and create a new society that is more evolved and more responsive to the needs of the growing population and of the suffering earth. And if these people are not supported with money, with tools, with skills, with proper legislation, then everything will fall apart.

Jeff Kavanaugh: Thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Same here. Thank you so much Jeff.

Jeff Kavanaugh: As a person who grew up very conservatively, and it's been an evolution of course, having a lot of good, diverse opinions and an environments over the years, especially trying to shut up and listen a little more often, I really enjoyed your discussion. Some of it is uncomfortable because it's not a polite ... how do you train a few more people? How does somebody make more profit? It's a broader discussion. I tried to put forward this whole idea of a triple bottom line, people, planet and profits, not quite your six P's but the way you've articulated it is so much more depth and rich.

Jeff Kavanaugh: And also, I do think now that no change happens until people are beyond their comfort zone and there are status quos that have to be challenged somewhat, either extremely aggressively or at least more quickly than they are today. So I think whatever that range is, it does need to change. And hopefully we can work together. And to the extent that I can, this Knowledge Institute, Infosys Knowledge Institute, one goal that I have is that part of our work is above and beyond typical corporate work and that we will be impacted. So I appreciate what you said. It's challenging, it's inspiring, and we'll take it one step at a time. In the meantime, please keep doing what you're doing. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Mariana Bozesan: Take care. Bye bye.

Jeff Kavanaugh: Take care. Bye bye.